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There’s an argument to be made that the 2024 presidential election result was decided in the podcast studio.
Some of the most popular podcasts became the unlikely kingmakers of modern democracy, with Donald Trump discussing everything from tariffs to whale psychology on Joe Rogan’s show to Kamala Harris tackling reproductive rights on Alex Cooper’s show.
This begs the question: what is a political podcast, and should we be paying more attention to their impact on a global scale?
Dr Maria Rae, a senior lecturer at Deakin with expertise in political science and communications, weighs in on the latest episode of Presidency Pending, hosted by Dr Clare Corbould and Dr Zim Nwokora from Deakin’s School of Humanities and Social Sciences
The definition of a political podcast may seem obvious at first – a podcast that discusses politics, right? But today, the lines are increasingly blurred.
Are we only counting traditional political podcasts, like the New York Time’s The Daily or BBC’s Global News Podcast? Or are we also including shows that weren’t originally created for political discussion but have since become platforms for political engagement?
‘We’re seeing a shift in the last couple of years towards what we call news influencers,’ says Rae. ‘These are people we wouldn’t normally associate with politics at all, like comedians and sportspeople.’
Rae adds that Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism conducts an annual survey on the most popular political podcasts, and they’ve ‘given up on trying to define what that is.’ Instead, they ask audience members directly: ‘What do you consider a political podcast?’
So, the likes of Joe Rogan and Alex Cooper are now considered political podcasters, despite their shows not being traditionally political in nature.
According to Rae, ‘In 2016, it was the Snapchat election and in 2020, it was the YouTube election.’ We’ve now entered the political podcast era, and the shift represents a fundamental change in how campaigns are trying to reach voters.
In previous elections, a US presidential candidate’s campaign schedule was relatively predictable: rallies across battleground states, a handful of prime-time television interviews and advertisements in broadcast media. But for future candidates, presidential and otherwise, podcast studios should be added to the list of stops.
According to Edison Research, which has been researching podcast listening since 2005, more people than ever before are listening to podcasts. In the US, a whopping 64% of the population aged 12 and older has listened to a podcast, and in Australia, according to Rae, about 40% of our nation’s population are monthly podcast listeners.
This represents a massive potential audience for electoral candidates. The argument for political podcasts becoming the campaign medium of choice only grows stronger when considering the demographic of the average podcast listener.
Podcasts have a relatively young listener base, with the average age in the early to mid-30s. Rae adds that podcast listeners tend to live in cities, earn a higher income and are predominantly men – although women’s listenership is growing rapidly.
Now that we’ve defined political podcasts, let’s consider what makes a good one – because, as you can imagine, not all podcasts (or guests!) are created equally.
‘Podcast scholar Siobhan McHugh talks about this idea of a chum cast,’ says Rae. ‘When we think about podcasts, we’re listening to people in our ears; we might be walking the dog, and we feel like these people are walking alongside us. So, it’s really terrific for communicating somebody’s authenticity.’
According to Rae’s research into political listening through Joe Rogan’s podcast, this sense of intimacy is backed by hard evidence. Successful political podcasts create what she calls ‘political listening’ – a form of engagement that blends intimacy with critical attention to different political voices.
Rae’s research also found that audiences don’t just listen to what is being said, but how it’s being said. Voice, speech and sound are critical to the experience, and in analysing listener responses to Joe Rogan’s interview with Elon Musk, she discovered that audiences were attuned to Musk’s speech patterns, voice tone, pace and accent more than the actual content of his statements.
For politicians and podcast creators, Rae’s findings suggest that authenticity in political podcasting isn’t just about being genuine – it’s about paying particular attention to how something is said and heard.
The 2024 US presidential election is a fascinating case study in how candidates approached their podcast audiences. Donald Trump sat down for a three-hour conversation with Joe Rogan, partly on the recommendation of his son, Barron, and Kamala Harris chose to appear on Alex Cooper’s Call Her Daddy.
‘Obviously, the key message was a lot about gender in this US election, and that kind of dominated who their target audience was as well,’ says Rae.
Rather than competing for the same audience, both candidates targeted distinctly different demographics. Let’s take a closer look at the strategy behind these choices.
Call Her Daddy is a popular female-focused podcast hosted by Alex Cooper with an average of 10 million listeners per episode. It’s consistently ranked as Spotify’s second-biggest podcast, just behind Joe Rogan’s Joe Rogan Experience, and it’s known for tackling topics around relationships, careers and personal empowerment.
‘Kamala Harris was targeting young women with the idea of abortion rights and freedom of choice, and so that’s why she went on to Call Her Daddy,’ says Rae.
While there was audience alignment, and Harris was able to speak about her key campaign messages, the strategic logic may have been undermined by the execution. Rae notes that Harris’s team reportedly built a fake set worth $100,000 rather than appearing on Cooper’s original set in Los Angeles.
‘Again, this kind of reinforces the idea that she’s not authentic, that she’s too scripted, that she manufactures communication,’ says Rae.
The episode reached approximately 900,000 listeners, which is a significant audience, but dwarfed by the views that Trump’s Joe Rogan interview would generate.
In comparison, the Joe Rogan Experience is the world’s biggest podcast, with host Joe Rogan earning at least $200 million from his Spotify contract. Despite its massive commercial success, the show maintains a deliberately lo-fi approach, and Rogan famously records in a simple garage setup without bells and whistles.
The podcast’s format is simple: long-form conversations with guests ranging from comedians and scientists to politicians and athletes. It’s unedited and informal in nature, and Rogan is known for a willingness to explore topics that might be considered too controversial for traditional media.
For Trump, this format worked well. ‘Trump needed to target young men, and he took the advice of his son Barron,’ says Rae. Trump also appeared on several other podcasts popular with that demographic, including ones hosted by Adin Ross and Theo Von.
Trump and Rogan discussed sports, drug addictions and personal issues. ‘I think that’s why it’s been seen as more successful for Trump, this kind of strategy,’ says Rae. ‘It really suits his personal style. He’s completely unscripted.’
We’ve seen the transformative impact that podcasts had on American politics, but can we expect the same phenomenon in Australia? According to Rae, some Australian politicians are already testing the waters.
Peter Dutton appeared on a podcast with former Olympian Sam Fricker, and Tanya Plibersek went on NoFilter with Mia Friedman. ‘They’re trying to target the younger audience, and especially the liberal party has had an issue with this,’ says Rae.
However, Australian podcasting faces unique challenges. The format suits what Rae calls ‘independent, maverick-style politics,’ but in Australia, ‘maverick-style politics is often seen as a gimmick rather than an authentic outsider.’
So, who might succeed? Rae suggests crossbench politicians or teal candidates may have the best shot, as they already operate outside traditional party structures. It’s an area to keep an eye on with future elections, particularly as audiences turn to podcasts for political engagement.
